An interview with secretary of the Smithsonian, Dr Lonnie Bunch

Eleanor Foster

Five days after rioters stormed the Capitol Building in Washington DC in early January 2021, I sat down for a conversation with the secretary of the Smithsonian Institution, Dr Lonnie G. Bunch III.¹ The intention of the interview was to discuss the role and responsibility of museums in the twenty-first century and to hear from Secretary Bunch about his career as one of the world’s leading practitioners of the public humanities. Bunch was founding director of the National Museum of African American History and Culture as well as the first black man and non-scientist to occupy the Smithsonian’s top post.² Throughout his career he has consistently articulated the value of history and museums to society in times of contestation.

While the need for museums to be socially engaged has been argued for decades, the speed with which institutions such as the Smithsonian responded to the 6 January protests reveals the extent to which this sentiment has become the norm.³ Museums were quick to collect objects linked to the violence, with media reports quoting Director Anthea M. Hartig of the National Museum of American History on the importance of preserving ‘objects and stories that help future generations remember and contextualise January 6 and its aftermath’.⁴ Here, it is clear that contemporary cause–based collecting has firmly entered the mainstream of museum practice. This is particularly the case for institutions dealing with national, social and cultural histories as they seek to provide a space in which communities can critically engage with shared histories and complex lived experiences.

Bunch’s statement in response to the Capitol Riots, posted via Twitter, had a broader political remit than that which is typically ascribed to museum professionals. Rather than linking 6 January solely to possibilities for collecting, or the violence to a lack of understanding that museums could remedy, he took a more expansive approach, writing:

As members of an unruly mob brandished the Confederate flag in the halls of Congress, it was a reminder that this was not simply an attack on our democratic institutions, but a repudiation of our shared values … This moment is a clarion call. We must commit to working across the lines that divide us to make real the nation so many have long dreamed for, a truly beloved community. As the leader of an institution dedicated to exploring and sharing knowledge for the benefit of humanity, I am more determined than ever to provide our country the resources to help bring the nation together.⁵

Here, Bunch contends that museums have a key role to play in making ‘real the nation’, taking an active position that embodies shared values and working ‘across the lines that divide us’. This assertion reiterates that public institutions and disciplines such as history are optimally suited to engaging ethically and meaningfully with the challenges of contemporary life.

What struck me about the short, half-hour interview I conducted with Secretary Bunch a week after 6 January was the intense optimism and hope he exuded when speaking about museums as they have evolved during his lifetime. This extended to an optimism about the future, too. Secretary Bunch’s clear vision of what a museum ought to be and how museums can be defined into the future was a welcome break from what I had seen as a general disciplinary stasis in museum studies and practice over recent years. This, in part, resulted from the International Council of Museum’s lack of consensus when it came to defining what a museum actually was (though this question has, for now, been resolved) and the broad spectrum of responses high-profile museums had taken towards increasing community demands.⁶ When speaking with Secretary Bunch, I did not want to delve straight into the political position of museums in light of the Capital Riots—I wanted to be faithful to questions approved by the Smithsonian media team a month prior; however, our conversation in several ways led to that discussion. Here, it is reproduced with slight amendments, with Secretary Bunch offering insight into his approach to the public humanities and advice to those pursuing a career in the cultural sector.⁷

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Foster: Today I am joined by Dr Lonnie Bunch, the fourteenth secretary of the Smithsonian Institution. The Smithsonian was founded in the United States in 1846 and is today the world’s largest research complex comprising of 19 museums, 21 libraries and numerous research centres. Hello and welcome Secretary Bunch, thank you so much for being here today.

Bunch: It’s my great pleasure. Glad to be with you.

Foster: I’d first like to ask you about the newest Smithsonian Museum, the National Museum of African American History and Culture located in Washington, DC. It opened in 2016, the museum was 40 years in the making and you were its inaugural director. What was it like to oversee a museum as significant as that?

Bunch: I must admit it was both challenging and exciting to recognise that this was a chance to create a museum in Washington that would help all Americans, [and] all who visited the Smithsonian, understand how they were shaped by the African American experience.

So, it was partly a way to help people remember stories that had been left out of the narrative, remembering people who were crucially important, but nobody knows their name. But it was also equally important to frame this as a lens for anybody to understand what it meant to be an American by understanding black culture.

So, the goal was, what was most exciting was, to create a museum that said: ‘This is everybody’s story’. It’s not a community story, it’s everybody. So, as I like to frame it, the most exciting thing was we were able to tell both a people story and a nation’s journey.

Foster: Absolutely. With the spread of social media around the world, I think it’s just so evident how influential black culture is not just to America, but the rest of the world.

Bunch: Even though I knew that it was important to frame the museum through an international lens, you know, [because] Americans by nature … you know, they don’t do global very well, and so I wanted them to really think about this.

But it really hit me. I was in Sweden near the Arctic Circle and I was talking to a village elder from the Sami people. And he said to me, ‘are you an American?’ I said, ‘yep’. He said, ‘do you know Al Green, the musician?’ And I just went, ‘wait a minute, I’m in the middle of nowhere and you’re asking me about Al Green?’ That taught me right then and there the power of this culture. So I really wanted people to understand its impact on the United States, but also its impact globally.

Foster: From what I understand, you started university in the 1970s and the National Museum of African American History and Culture also had its inception around this time. When did you realise that history was the discipline that most compelled you, and how did this period influence your development as a public historian?

Bunch: Well, I think first of all, the museum is even older than that. I mean, the idea for the museum began in 1915, so it’s really been a hundred-year stretch. So, part of my job was to fulfil the dreams of many generations, but for me, history became the most important thing for me because I grew up in a community where there were very few black people and there were people that treated me horribly and people that treated me wonderfully. And I couldn’t understand why. So I thought if I understood the history of my little town, maybe I’d understand why people treated me in a certain way. And then that got me to thinking about just understanding history as a way to understand the nation. So, history became both something personal and professional. It became a way for me to make sense of the world.

It gave me a way of thinking—that I could realise—that history gave me tools to understand not just the past, but the present. History really was my muse, but I realised that, you know, I taught in university, I loved teaching in university, but I realised that a museum gave me even a bigger canvas to paint on. And what I really like was the interaction that happens in a museum. It’s kind of like one of the things that always struck me when I was a kid, we’d have these barbecues, parties in the backyard and you know, my aunt would say something, and my uncle would say something very differently. Another relative would say something and the conversation would go to some place that nobody anticipated. I thought that’s what a good museum is.

People come together who don’t know each other and they may engage with an artefact, or a public program and they talk and suddenly they’re in a place they hadn’t anticipated. I loved the fact that that museums were more of a social engagement, and not just sort of me talking to the few people that will read my book, but rather stimulating conversations among many generations. That’s what excited me about museums.

Foster: It’s interesting what you say about museums bringing people with diverse views together because often communities, especially national communities, can be a broad church. Sometimes museum narratives can be controversial to one portion of society, and you know, empowering to another. How do you strike that balance?

Bunch: Well, I think first of all, the job of me as a scholar in a museum and a public historian is to make sure you’re driven by scholarship. So, therefore, that’s the engine. But then, recognising that it doesn’t make sense if you’ve got brilliant scholarship but people don’t understand it, that it’s done in a way that is not accessible and open.

So, what I love about it is that we have to learn, I had to learn, how to find language, find skills, that allowed me to sort of make sure that rather than giving simple answers to complex questions, that I wanted to use museums to help the public understand nuance and complexity, but maybe more than anything else I wanted museums [to] help the public embrace ambiguity.

I wanted the museum to say: ‘If we could help the public grapple with the shades of grey, my goodness, what a contribution we could make to the American public.’ So, for me, it was really about utilising the fact that people get excited around an object. People understand the visual nature of an exhibition, to use that in a way that would challenge, inspire, prod and push people to recognise that museums are not about yesterday, as much as they’re about today and tomorrow.

Foster: Following on from that, you’ve written that ‘history museums have a responsibility to convey fuller, more complex histories’.⁸ What do you see as the role of museums and public history in the twenty-first century, particularly with increased polarisation around the world?

Bunch: I think there are two things for me. One is all museums, I don’t care if they’re museums of history or science, all museums have a social justice role. They’ve got a responsibility to help a nation be made better, to help a nation find understanding, to help a nation find fairness and justice because museums are places that people trust. Museums are places that people who might not talk to each other come together. So, I really feel there is a social justice role and obligation if you will, that museums have to play.

But I also believe that part of what museums do is museums are the glue that holds communities and countries together. And so, as that glue, they need to take that responsibility very seriously, and realise that there are times you’re going to do things that are going to scare people, that are going to upset people. But you do it in a way that says: ‘This is about the greater good’, not just trying to point fingers or express guilt. Museums are at their best when they inspire us to think of things that we hadn’t anticipated, allow us to see things in a new light and allow us to illuminate all the dark corners of our experience, good or bad.

Ultimately a nation cannot heal, a nation cannot find understanding, if it doesn’t understand its past. And if it runs away from talking about difficult issues, museums can help people find that common ground.

Foster: My research currently looks at object histories of Indigenous Australian collections that have been dispersed throughout the former British Empire and the United States, the Smithsonian included. This has made me think about how objects can be multilayered and can bring many truths to the surface. Do you think that object research is something that history as a discipline needs to do more of?

Bunch: I think that’s absolutely right. When I first got into museums, people used to say to me, ‘remember, objects speak for themselves’. Well, they whisper for themselves. Right? And I think part of the challenge is to understand both the layers of what these objects tell us, the meanings of these objects, and then understanding the layers that people bring to those objects to help them interpret them in a way that gives people a kind of useful and usable experience.

So I think the notion of being more sophisticated in object research and recognising that object research is really the best way to ensure that you’re communicating effectively with audiences. I think the notion of what I love that object research more than anything else is that it forces me to look at things through many layers. I think that’s the power of it. I guess one of our great strengths ought to be to help the public recognise that we’re making choices as scholars and museums and the choices are based on experience, expertise, scholarship, but it’s a choice nonetheless. And the more we can unpack that for the public, by helping them understand the many layers of these objects, the more engaged the public will be.

Foster: Do you think these responsibilities extend to museums around the world taking on a more political role in the future?

Bunch: I’ve always felt that museums by their very nature are political. The choices they make, the choices of objects they don’t show, the way they interpret—it’s political. So therefore saying that museums are now entering to a political sphere is wrong. They’ve always been political. What I think is the challenge for museums is to recognise that because they are political, because the public trusts them, you’ve got even a more special obligation to help the public see things differently, understand things in a way that they may not have without being able to engage around an object or an exhibition. So I think in some ways, as I said earlier, museums are the glue because in those museums are the opportunity to find that common ground, to find that understanding, to basically have the courage to challenge, have the courage to explore difficult issues, but also have the courage to recognise that you have to know your audiences almost as well as you know your artifact.

I think that begins to make museums stronger and better, but I believe very strongly that it’s incumbent upon … I spent a lot of time travelling around the world, right? Whether it’s Australia, New Zealand, the UK, China, looking at how museums reflect regional or national identity through their collections. And it is amazing to me, both what you can learn about national identity through museums, and also, I look at, for example, how the right-wing government in Hungary is trying to change museums to create a different narrative. So it’s crucially important for people to understand how essential museums are to crafting national identity, to reflecting national identity, but also crafting national identity and to do that it also means that they’re political.

So I think there’s nothing wrong with recognising that we’re going down some roads that some people may [see] as political as long as we do it in a way that says, ‘here’s why’. I’ve always felt it was important. Museums always act like they’re the last great craft guild, right? That there are secret knocks and special handshakes and only a few people can see beyond the veil. I’ve always felt that if we were really true with [what] we believe, we’d let people see behind the veil. We’d deconstruct the museum and help people understand how we come to the choices we make. And that would make people, I think, better and stronger.

Foster: I totally agree. Changing tack a little bit here, do you have an object in any of the museums’ collections that you yourself find most compelling and wish more people knew about?

Bunch: There’s so many—you got three hours? I think that one of the things that we collected in building the National Museum of African American History and Culture was a slave cabin. And when people see it, their first reactions are, ‘oh my God, look how horrible slavery was’. And then as you begin to unpack, you say, ‘wait a minute, though, this is still people’s homes. How did they make it a home? What kind of interaction went on that was outside the world of the people that owned them?’ And then what I love about this cabin is that when it was a cabin that the enslaved lived in, there was one door, one way in so that the overseer could see you. But as soon as freedom came, they carved the back door. So they could go out and exercise their own freedom. So, for me, that simple fact of making a second door spoke volumes of how you identify yourself as suddenly free and that kind of object, that kind of story means so much to you.

Foster: That is really amazing. I hope I get to visit one day. I admit I haven’t been lucky enough to go to any of the Smithsonians yet, but fingers crossed in a couple years time.

Bunch: And the good thing is it’s been there for 175 years and the museum I’ve been there for four years. You got time.

Foster: Yeah. It’s not going anywhere! Finally, given all we’ve spoken about today, what advice would you give a student like me who loves history, who loves museums in 2021 and who is aspiring to a career that somehow can grapple with both of those?

Bunch: Well, I think that first of all, I applaud that you care about this because really what you’re doing is you’re caring about our identity, who we are, and there’s nothing more powerful than that, helping us understand.

I would argue that there are several things one should do. First and foremost, master your craft, really understand the profession you’re in. Think about, as you said, researching collections and whatever it is, master it so that you really have the expertise. Secondly, realise that in this profession that you want to go in, that you’re in, it’s really about the greater good. It’s not about you. It’s about the greater good. And I’ve always told people that work with me: ‘We do important work and your career will flourish. You’ll grow, you’ll get what you need. But if your goal is to think about you and you only, then this is not the place for you, because this is about giving of who you are so that others can understand themselves more’.

And I think the last piece [of advice] is no matter what you do, whatever it is you love, never lose that as you go through your career. Because what I realised is … a quick story. I was very early in my career and I was working in a museum in Los Angeles. And I met a man and his wife. I was probably 27 and he was 90. He was a painter from a famous school of painting in the United States and he looked at me and he said, ‘you’re a historian, right?’ I said, ‘yes’. He said, ‘do you write all the time?’ And I said, ‘well, you know, sometimes I do, I can’. And he said, ‘look, I’m a painter. I paint every day. And you may not be able to write every day, but make sure you never lose that as your love. That is what got you into the profession’. So I’ve always in my career, no matter what I was doing, found time to write. Sometimes just an article, sometimes a book, but that allowed me never to lose who I am. So even though you’re in a profession you love, find that core that gets you through every day and never lose it. And then remember the most important thing is remember to laugh. It’s not without laughter.

Foster: Thank you, Secretary Bunch. That will definitely get me through my next set of assignments.

Bunch: Good. Great. Glad to help.

Foster: Sadly I think this is all we’ve got time for. Thank you so much for your time Secretary Bunch. It has been a true pleasure to speak with you and I wish you all the best and all your colleagues over in the US. We’re all thinking of you here in Australia.

Bunch: Well thank you. I wish you the best, and come see us.

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As Secretary Bunch eloquently expressed throughout this conversation, the question of whether museums are political and should critically engage with contemporary social issues is no longer up for debate. He persuasively argues that museums enjoy a privileged position to make communities understand complex histories and the way societies and nations can interact. The importance of embracing this nuance, knowing the community one operates for, and centring objects as key to visitor engagement and understanding are all valuable takeaways for those working or aspiring to work in museums and the public humanities. While a crisis of funding and employment within the sector may make these assertions easier said than done, there is no doubt that Secretary Bunch’s optimism regarding the future of museums is infectious. For me, this provided a welcome break from the cynicism about the current state of the arts that is all too easy to fall into.

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1. 1 This opportunity arose as an initiative of The Australian National University’s College of Arts and Social Science to have students interview someone doing their ‘dream job’. The interview was recorded on 11 January 2021 and published as a podcast, see ‘Future Self: Episode 6: The Story of Us’, Podcast, 3 August 2021, future-self.simplecast.com/episodes/the-story-of-us.

2. 2 Lonnie G. Bunch III, A Fool’s Errand: Creating the National Museum of African American History and Culture in the Age of Bush, Obama, and Trump (Washington: Smithsonian Books, 2019).

3. 3 Kylie Message, Museums and Social Activism: Engaged Protest (London: Routledge, 2014).

4. 4 Hakim Bishara, ‘US Museums and Art Institutions Respond to Capitol Attack’, Hyperallergic, 8 January 2021: hyperallergic.com/613809/us-museums-and-art-institutions-respond-to-capitol-attack/; Nora McGreevy, ‘How the Smithsonian and Other Museums Are Responding to the U.S. Capitol Riot’, Smithsonian Magazine, 12 January 2021, www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-us-museums-are-responding-violence-capitol-180976738/.

5. 5 Lonnie G. Bunch III, ‘A Clarion Call for Democracy: Smithsonian Secretary Lonnie G. Bunch Statement’, Media Release, 11 January 2021, www.si.edu/newsdesk/releases/clarion-call-democracy.

6. 6 Alex Marshall, ‘What Is a Museum? A Dispute Erupts over a New Definition’, New York Times, 6 August 2020, www.nytimes.com/2020/08/06/arts/what-is-a-museum.html; Karen Brown and François Mairesse, ‘The Definition of the Museum through Its Social Role’, Curator 61, no. 4 (2018), doi.org/10.1111/cura.12276; Angelica Villa, ‘Industry Group Adds the Word ‘Diversity’ to Its Definition of Museums—But Some Say It’s Not Enough’, Artnet, 26 August 2022, www.artnews.com/art-news/news/international-council-revises-definition-museum-1234637556/; Jo Lawson-Tancred, ‘German Museums Fine Climate Protestors for Damaging Property, but Environmental Groups Show No Signs of Slowing Down’, Artnet, 26 October 2022, news.artnet.com/art-world/german-museums-fine-climate-protestors-for-damaging-property-but-environmental-groups-show-no-signs-of-slowing-down-2199002/.

7. 7 Some filler words and phrases have been removed for ease of reading. Where it has been necessary to add more context to a question, this is indicated in square brackets. The full interview without amendments can be heard via the link in footnote 1.

8. 8 Josh Axelrod, ‘Lonnie Bunch III Takes Helm of the Smithsonian: ‘I Feel the Weight of History’, National Public Radio, 12 June 2019, www.npr.org/2019/06/12/730795443/lonnie-bunch-iii-takes-helm-of-the-smithsonian-i-feel-the-weight-of-history.